Nate Lagos is a seasoned ecommerce conversion optimizer, but a latest A/B take a look at stunned him.
A consumer used all-caps textual content in key touchdown web page headlines. Nate, having learn a tip on X, instructed they take a look at headlines that capitalized solely the primary letter of every phrase.
The end result? Conversions elevated by 25%
Nate first appeared on the podcast in 2025, when he addressed Fb advert efficiency. For this dialog, he centered on “bottoms-up” testing, viewers focusing on, and advertising and marketing male merchandise to ladies.
Our whole audio is embedded under. The transcript is edited for readability and size.
Eric Bandholz: What the heck do you do?
Nate Lagos: I launched my very own model, Shootin’ Doubles, final 12 months. We promote hats for whiskey guys. It began as a enjoyable aspect challenge. It has grown right into a enterprise with legs.
I left my full-time job to concentrate on that firm, however I noticed I wanted to make more cash. So I began an company in Might of this 12 months referred to as Bottoms Up: Efficiency Copywriting & CRO, the place we take a look at manufacturers’ copy on-site, in emails, and in advert accounts. That’s been going nicely.
I’ve spent the final decade as an in-house efficiency marketer for ecommerce firms, together with Adapt Naturals, Unique Grain, and Dugout Mugs.
I’m an entrepreneur now.
Bandholz: How do you method copywriting for conversions?
Lagos: I didn’t concentrate on conversion copy till I labored at Unique Grain, makers of picket watches, about 5 years in the past. I used to be promoting one thing with little utility. Everybody owns a telephone to inform time; nobody wants a watch. So I began to research why folks purchase a watch, why the class even exists.
I noticed {that a} watch is rather more than a timekeeping gadget. It’s an indication of standing, a logo of accomplishment. We examined messaging focusing on that persona. Conversion charges, common order worth, income per customer — all moved aggressively in the suitable route.
We elevated income almost fivefold within the 5 years I used to be there. A number of it was on account of improved storytelling and copywriting.
Many inventive strategists implement top-of-funnel promoting concepts. They begin with what they suppose is high of thoughts for prospects. I take a bottoms-up method. Prime-of-funnel is usually removed from an precise buy resolution. Typically, it’s not even associated to the merchandise.
A bottoms-up technique means testing copy as shut as potential to the add-to-cart button — headlines, product element pages, even house pages. I wish to know what entices somebody to purchase or to bounce.
As soon as we all know that, we perceive what patrons are actually after. And as soon as we perceive that, we are able to go proper to top-of-funnel concepts that appeal to the correct of intent.
We’ll compose the core promoting message to be extra attention-grabbing, extra scroll-stopping.
And 90% of the time, we’re utilizing Intelligems to A/B take a look at all the pieces. It’s a terrific device.
Bandholz: What’s the required quantity for significant take a look at outcomes?
Lagos: Tens of hundreds, if not a whole bunch of hundreds, of website guests and hundreds of orders. I intention for statistical significance with an 80% or larger chance of beating the management. Ongoing iteration is important.
A warmth map device will present what guests are studying and spending time on. These are the high-impact, high-leverage areas, usually touchdown pages, house pages, product pages, titles, and headlines. The primary block of copy on a web page issues so much.
Bandholz: What take a look at outcomes have stunned you?
Lagos: Keep away from all caps is one. It’s apparently a legibility factor. I haven’t examined it on buttons, however headlines and website copy don’t must be in all caps. I can’t take credit score for the concept, as I learn it on X.
I just lately examined it for a consumer who used all caps in headlines. I ran another take a look at that capitalized solely the primary letter of each phrase. It produced a 25% enhance in conversions on a high traffic touchdown web page and a decrease value per acquisition. I used to be stunned.
I’ve seen comparable outcomes with headlines in smaller textual content fairly than giant.
Each of these counsel easy-to-read copy.
Bandholz: What a progress technique for a model that’s saturated its core viewers?
Lagos: Use merchandise as a progress lever. At all times ask, “Who else may we goal?”
After I began at Unique Grain, about half of our clients have been ladies, but we had solely messaged males earlier than that. We acquired excellent at messaging ladies, who turned 80% of our clients, and the enterprise saved rising.
In your firm, Beardbrand, possibly there’s an angle to promote beard oil to ladies who’re bored with kissing husbands with scratchy beards. Earlier than launching a bunch of pricey and time-consuming merchandise, take into consideration who else to promote to.
Bandholz: What’s your recommendation for promoting to ladies?
Lagos: Rent a lady. I employed Sarah Levinger once I acquired to Unique Grain. I didn’t know her earlier than then. After I came upon half our clients have been ladies, I approached her. I mentioned there’s a large alternative to promote males’s watches to ladies as presents for his or her husbands, boyfriends, dads, and brothers, however I’ve no clue the best way to do it.
She coached me a ton. We did nice work collectively.
On the subject of presents, it’s easy. Females wish to be sure that they present appreciation for what their husbands do for them. At Unique Grain, it was ladies in conventional households, with husbands doing many of the exterior work and incomes earnings. It was her means of claiming, “Thanks. I respect you.”
For the 30 days earlier than Father’s Day and the 45 days earlier than Christmas, our messaging geared toward feminine present patrons. Throughout the 12 months, the primary web site centered on males.
Bandholz: The place can folks observe you, rent you, or attain out?
Lagos: Observe me on X. Hearken to my podcast, “Tactical and Sensible Advertising and marketing.” I’m additionally on LinkedIn.
